Student Protests in the UK

What it says on the tin...
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Gavvie
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Post by Gavvie »

Kaito-kun wrote:If you didn't vote then you've thrown away your right to complain.
I absolutely hate that. It's almost as if you're saying "You're a part of a democracy, but only if you vote". It's just plain wrong.

No, I didn't vote. Want to know why? Because I feel that every single fucking politician in this Godforsaken country spouts the same shit, albeit using different words, and I refuse to vote for their drivel. I'll only start to vote when somebody comes out and tells the bloody truth.

That said, had I voted, I would have gone Tory. Cameron has told it like it is, and whilst he wasn't at all honest about what he was going to do once he got his foot in the door, he did say that life would get tough. We all listened. We all nodded. We all agreed.

If it wasn't for Labour creating I.O.U.DegreezLOL and making damn sure that even a retard could get a PhD in Nuclear Physics, we wouldn't have the protests, or the problems, that we have now. All the Tories have done is take us back 15-20 years to when you had to be able to afford to go to Uni, instead of making the taxpayers pay for it.

For the time being, in the economical state we find ourselves in, it's a good move. Aw boo, you're pissed off cos little Timmy can't go to Uni, but if he can't finance it, I don't want to either.

But yeah, all that crap about "YOU LOSE YOUR RIGHT TO COMPLAIN :D", I think you'll find it's one of the most basic of Human Rights - Freedom of Speech. Thanks.
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Post by Tru »

Actually, I don't think we have an official freedom of speech act here in the UK, I think that's just an American thing.

But even so, students have the right to complain too, especially when they feel let down and betrayed. The point of these protests are to show that we're not happy, even if nothing changes, which I doubt it will, does that mean we should just sit down and accept it? We are voters, and we have a right to say how our future is ran.

Do you honestly think that only the rich should be allowed to go to Uni? Because I seriously doubt any person on minimum wage can afford fees of £9k a year without having multiple jobs, jobs which young people can't even get right now. What else are they supposed to do?

You think any old idiot can get through the harder degrees at Uni? Uni work is hard, takes a lot of dedication and work. Yes, there are some useless degrees, but I do think that degrees which benefit society should be open to those who wish to study them. Students benefit society in many other ways too.

Also, I personally hate the taxpayer argument. "I, as a taxpayer, shouldn't be paying for this crap" etc. What does it matter, you'll be paying taxes no matter what it's on. Its just, with a Conservative government, you'll be lining the gloves of those who don't exactly need it.
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Post by Reknoc »

There's nothing wrong with the students protesting, even if it changes nothing at least they didn't sit there and take it. It's the rioting that's totally not alright to do. And they're the ones that are going to ruin it for everyone else.
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Post by Gonic »

As a student...I shouldn't be walking away from marches feel like I accomplished nothing :( Nick Clegg is an arsehole
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Post by Killer French Bread »

CapnCloudchaser wrote:
Also, I personally hate the taxpayer argument. "I, as a taxpayer, shouldn't be paying for this crap" etc. What does it matter, you'll be paying taxes no matter what it's on. Its just, with a Conservative government, you'll be lining the gloves of those who don't exactly need it.
It sounds like you're saying that because you'll be paying taxes anyway it doesn't matter what the government pisses it away on. Which is mental. And makes the whole system sound like a form of theft.

To discuss the actual point of the topic though, I want them to stop trying to force as many mongs through the system as possible. Give grants to students with good grades, and make the gyppos that get into a film studies degree through clearing with their GNVQ pay for the 3 year piss up themselves. But of course that sounds even harsher than the 'buy now pay later' thing they have now; the government would rather sell everyone some story that anyone can cruise through 6th form, live the 'skins dream', drink your way to a degree and then have some cool creative job and be an 'individual'. Get real, we're all working in office jobs, but now with a shitload of debt.
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Post by Kaito-kun »

Gavvie wrote:I absolutely hate that. It's almost as if you're saying "You're a part of a democracy, but only if you vote". It's just plain wrong.
I wasn't saying that at all, I saying "What's the point in living in a democracy if you don't take part in the rare occasions where you can do something?"

Not voting only works if EVERYONE does it, as in not one soul in the country votes. Which won't happen, complain all you want to friend, family, fourm people, breakfast TV, newspapers, randoms on the street etc but there's fuck all they can do for you in reality, the only time we can have even the tiniest, most minuscule effect on how the country is run is by voting.

As for the "It'll stop being going to uni just to piss out about" argument then I feel that I should point towards organizations such as the bullington club and all the other toff filled clubs dedicated to rowdy behaviour.
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Tru
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Post by Tru »

Killer French Bread wrote:It sounds like you're saying that because you'll be paying taxes anyway it doesn't matter what the government pisses it away on. Which is mental. And makes the whole system sound like a form of theft.
But the only real way things like that change, as Kaito has just mentioned, is by voting and taking part in the political system. I see your point, but isn't paying for the future education of our citizens important? If you're paying taxes, then shouldn't it be spent on something worthwhile?

I believe that education is worthwhile. Not everyone who goes to Uni does so to 'live the Skins dream' as you say. Those people tend to fail and drop out anyway, if that is the case.

Besides which, students pay back their student loans over time, so it's not like they're getting a degree for free.
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Post by Killer French Bread »

Voting and taking part in the political system are not necessarily the same thing. That's what people are trying to say. They were engaged in political events, but they were not convinced to vote. And how have you compared effectiveness between voting and other methods of changing things? Only a few people have valuable votes in the marginal constituencies. Don't live there? Then I'd say getting out there and protesting, or just engaging people in debate and making your voice heard, is a much more effective way of effecting change.

I voted for the lib dem guy in the election. He didn't get in, my vote was probably looked at by one person and binned. Just because I went through that administrative ritual I can now pretend I'm making a difference? Is that "taking part in the political system" anymore than protesting or complaining?

I don't like the snobbery about who can and can't complain. It's almost elitest, like you have to do some initiation test before you can get into the 'complainers club' or something. Weird.

Your point about education is not really related to my, admittedly vague, point. Education is obviously worthwhile. I think the way the government says University is the only option for a lot of people is almost deception. We have a much higher percentage of sixth form students going to University than other comparable countries (15% more than Germany) There's no need for a lot of people to go, they only end up in needless debt themselves and cost the public purse a great deal too. Part of the way they are convinced to go is this notion it is a great social event, that's why I mentioned the skins thing. I also think giving grants to more able students is fairer, as then it is not down to money who goes but ability. You agree with that, don't you?
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Tru
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Post by Tru »

I'll agree that protesting is more effective, but if people don't vote, then nothing will happen either way. Even a protest non-vote is only effective if it's done by many people, as Kaito states. Look at the last general election; because none of the three party's were strong enough, we ended up into a coalition, which is better than an all out Conservative government in my opinion. I do feel sorry for Nick Clegg; he's only doing what he has to do, but the way things have been going, I don't think the Lib Dems will ever see power again. If more people voted for the Lib Dems outright, then that is what we would have had. Hell, we've never been closer to a Lib Dem government than this year, so I think that's a good indication of what voters can do when they try.

From my experience, the only people who don't vote are those that just can't be bothered. So yes, it irritates me when they complain about how the government is ran when they don't take part in the political system. If you're up, out and actively engaging, then that's a different matter; you care enough to do something. I don't think that makes me a snob.

Although maybe it's better to not vote than to just vote for someone you know nothing about.

I agree that giving grants to students who have the ability is fairer, but only if those from poorer families are given the chance. Labour didn't just make University out to be a rite of passage all young people must do; I saw it as them opening the doors for disadvantaged families to finally go, if they wanted to, rather than University being an elite place that only the rich can go to. That's what it feels like it's turning into again. If there are more opportunities for younger people like apprenticeships, etc, then it balances it out. Maybe people think that in this economy, you need a degree. Certainly many decent jobs require good qualifications.

But, I honestly think if someone has their heart set on going to University, then they should be supported in that dream. My house mate is going to Uni because she wants to join the RAF and her specific career path requires her to have a degree. She recently had to change her degree and was forced to pay the tuition fees for that course. She was distraught, as her life dream was crumbling around her, but we came together and raised enough money to pay for this years, and she'll saving up to pay next years. That's only 3k though. Any more than that and she wouldn't be able to. The RAF have strict rules about age entries as well, so it's not like she could spend a few years saving up.

For £9k a year, you would need to spend a few years saving up. But young people are struggling to find jobs. I don't think you can get official sponsorship for undergrads, it's possible you could get a bank loan, but they would still be in debt, regardless. It doesn't matter how smart or dedicated you are if you're not rich enough.

But if you are rich enough, it doesn't matter if you're not smart or dedicated.

Edit: Can I just add that it's refreshing to have this discussion here, more mature topics are good!
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Gavvie
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Post by Gavvie »

Kaito-kun wrote:I wasn't saying that at all, I saying "What's the point in living in a democracy if you don't take part in the rare occasions where you can do something?"

Not voting only works if EVERYONE does it, as in not one soul in the country votes. Which won't happen, complain all you want to friend, family, fourm people, breakfast TV, newspapers, randoms on the street etc but there's fuck all they can do for you in reality, the only time we can have even the tiniest, most minuscule effect on how the country is run is by voting.

As for the "It'll stop being going to uni just to piss out about" argument then I feel that I should point towards organizations such as the bullington club and all the other toff filled clubs dedicated to rowdy behaviour.
It wasn't a personal attack on you, I just hate how most people try to use that as a reason to shut everybody up.
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